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	<title>Comments on: Strong AI and FTL</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.complexitystudies.org/2008/08/16/strong-ai-and-ftl/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.complexitystudies.org/2008/08/16/strong-ai-and-ftl/</link>
	<description>metaphysics, philosophy, and a vision of the future</description>
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		<title>By: jofr</title>
		<link>http://www.complexitystudies.org/2008/08/16/strong-ai-and-ftl/comment-page-1/#comment-1432</link>
		<dc:creator>jofr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 08:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.complexitystudies.org/?p=263#comment-1432</guid>
		<description>I makes more sense to compare Strong AI with the FTM
(Flight to the Moon) and the Apollo Space Program.
The rocket can be compared to an agent which has 
to survive autonomously in an unknown environment.
The ground control and the astronauts are like the 
mind of the agent which controls it.

In principle all we had to do for the FTM was

* create a device capable of travelling to the moon
* launch the device 

To achieve the goal of Strong AI, just remember what 
H.A. Simon said in &quot;The Sciences of the Artificial&quot; :
&quot;A man, viewed as a behaving system, is quite
simple. The apparent complexity of his behavior
over time is largely a reflection of the complexity
of the environment in which he finds himself.&quot; 
Thus we have to

* create an adaptive system and place it in 
  a complex artificial environment
* let the system learn and grow

The big problem is the engine: the engine of the 
rocket in the former case, and in the latter case 
the 3D graphics engine and the engine to process the
information of the agent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I makes more sense to compare Strong AI with the FTM<br />
(Flight to the Moon) and the Apollo Space Program.<br />
The rocket can be compared to an agent which has<br />
to survive autonomously in an unknown environment.<br />
The ground control and the astronauts are like the<br />
mind of the agent which controls it.</p>
<p>In principle all we had to do for the FTM was</p>
<p>* create a device capable of travelling to the moon<br />
* launch the device </p>
<p>To achieve the goal of Strong AI, just remember what<br />
H.A. Simon said in &#8220;The Sciences of the Artificial&#8221; :<br />
&#8220;A man, viewed as a behaving system, is quite<br />
simple. The apparent complexity of his behavior<br />
over time is largely a reflection of the complexity<br />
of the environment in which he finds himself.&#8221;<br />
Thus we have to</p>
<p>* create an adaptive system and place it in<br />
  a complex artificial environment<br />
* let the system learn and grow</p>
<p>The big problem is the engine: the engine of the<br />
rocket in the former case, and in the latter case<br />
the 3D graphics engine and the engine to process the<br />
information of the agent.</p>
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		<title>By: guenther</title>
		<link>http://www.complexitystudies.org/2008/08/16/strong-ai-and-ftl/comment-page-1/#comment-1398</link>
		<dc:creator>guenther</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.complexitystudies.org/?p=263#comment-1398</guid>
		<description>@Dan

fixed, thanks for the notice, must have been some Freudian thing ;-)

@Carver
Thanks for your comments, I am aware of all the points but a detailed response will have to wait for later blog posts.

Here some quick remarks: Searle&#039;s Chinese room and the Gödelian arguments are highly controversial.

Concerning the Chinese room, I side with the critics of Searle who say that &quot;understanding&quot; occurs at the system level. As a thought experiment it proves nothing anyway. See for instance the very interesting paper &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.springerlink.com/content/nh5275n86g6mg2r4/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;When are thought experiments poor ones?&lt;/a&gt; by Peijnenburg and Atkinson for the problematic nature of thought experiments.

Gödelian arguments against mechanism are often raised (most notably by Lucas and Penrose) but have all been shown to be erroneous by logicians (Solomon Feferman, Judson Webb come to mind immediately). 

As to the difficulty of constructing AI, one should never forget that it is only a few decades since the invention of programmable computers. False hopes were raised by the pioneers (Turing etc) - they did indeed underestimate the difficulty of AI - and these hopes were dashed; this does not mean that AI is impossible.

Speculating about AIs in the 1950s was a bit like speculating about going to the moon when the steam engine was invented - it was a bit too early, that&#039;s all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dan</p>
<p>fixed, thanks for the notice, must have been some Freudian thing <img src='http://www.complexitystudies.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@Carver<br />
Thanks for your comments, I am aware of all the points but a detailed response will have to wait for later blog posts.</p>
<p>Here some quick remarks: Searle&#8217;s Chinese room and the Gödelian arguments are highly controversial.</p>
<p>Concerning the Chinese room, I side with the critics of Searle who say that &#8220;understanding&#8221; occurs at the system level. As a thought experiment it proves nothing anyway. See for instance the very interesting paper <a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/nh5275n86g6mg2r4/" rel="nofollow">When are thought experiments poor ones?</a> by Peijnenburg and Atkinson for the problematic nature of thought experiments.</p>
<p>Gödelian arguments against mechanism are often raised (most notably by Lucas and Penrose) but have all been shown to be erroneous by logicians (Solomon Feferman, Judson Webb come to mind immediately). </p>
<p>As to the difficulty of constructing AI, one should never forget that it is only a few decades since the invention of programmable computers. False hopes were raised by the pioneers (Turing etc) &#8211; they did indeed underestimate the difficulty of AI &#8211; and these hopes were dashed; this does not mean that AI is impossible.</p>
<p>Speculating about AIs in the 1950s was a bit like speculating about going to the moon when the steam engine was invented &#8211; it was a bit too early, that&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.complexitystudies.org/2008/08/16/strong-ai-and-ftl/comment-page-1/#comment-1397</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.complexitystudies.org/?p=263#comment-1397</guid>
		<description>You mean to say &quot;descendants,&quot; not &quot;ancestors.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mean to say &#8220;descendants,&#8221; not &#8220;ancestors.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Carver</title>
		<link>http://www.complexitystudies.org/2008/08/16/strong-ai-and-ftl/comment-page-1/#comment-1396</link>
		<dc:creator>Carver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.complexitystudies.org/?p=263#comment-1396</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed the article, but I don&#039;t think you&#039;ve given an accurate account of the (particularly philosophical) reasons why strong A.I. may be impossible.  For example, Searle&#039;s Chinese Room: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-room/ And I have yet to see a way to over come the implications Godel&#039;s Incompleteness Theorem to A.I.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_(philosophy)#G.C3.B6delian_arguments

 Also, doesn&#039;t the complete and utter failure of us to make *any* progress in strong A.I. point out that it may be impossible? I&#039;ll grant you that isn&#039;t quite as a formidable argument as relativity is to FTL, but the point stands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed the article, but I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ve given an accurate account of the (particularly philosophical) reasons why strong A.I. may be impossible.  For example, Searle&#8217;s Chinese Room: <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-room/" rel="nofollow">http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-room/</a> And I have yet to see a way to over come the implications Godel&#8217;s Incompleteness Theorem to A.I.: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_(philosophy)#G.C3.B6delian_arguments" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_(philosophy)#G.C3.B6delian_arguments</a></p>
<p> Also, doesn&#8217;t the complete and utter failure of us to make *any* progress in strong A.I. point out that it may be impossible? I&#8217;ll grant you that isn&#8217;t quite as a formidable argument as relativity is to FTL, but the point stands.</p>
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		<title>By: CAS-Group Blog &#187; Mindless Intelligence</title>
		<link>http://www.complexitystudies.org/2008/08/16/strong-ai-and-ftl/comment-page-1/#comment-1394</link>
		<dc:creator>CAS-Group Blog &#187; Mindless Intelligence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 20:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.complexitystudies.org/?p=263#comment-1394</guid>
		<description>[...] problem in the sense of “could it possibly exist?”; it is evidently an engineering problem (see here and here). Since we all agree on AI’s fundamental hypothesis, that physical machines have the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] problem in the sense of “could it possibly exist?”; it is evidently an engineering problem (see here and here). Since we all agree on AI’s fundamental hypothesis, that physical machines have the [...]</p>
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